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On this “Face the Nation” broadcast moderated by Margaret Brennan:

  • Former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb
  • Education Secretary Miguel Cardona
  • Representative Liz Cheney
  • Representative Adam Schiff
  • University of Chicago professor Robert Pape

Click right here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation.”  

MARGARET BRENNAN, HOST: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.

And this week on Face the Nation, we start our third 12 months of COVID-19 with an enormous spike in Omicron instances and a nonetheless fragile democracy, as we close to the primary anniversary of the January 6 Capitol assault.

America is kicking off 2022 with a repeat from final 12 months, a coronavirus disaster that is going to worsen earlier than it will get higher. The Omicron variant, fueled by vacation gatherings and spreading with breathtaking velocity, notably amongst youthful Americans, is irritating and worrisome to a nation that has had sufficient.

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JOE BIDEN (President of the United States): We need to do extra. We need to do higher. And we’ll.

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MARGARET BRENNAN: But what else may be performed, with practically 15 % of eligible adults nonetheless refusing to get vaccinated?

We will discuss with former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb.

And as college students head again to highschool after winter break, what’s being performed to maintain them protected? Education Secretary Miguel Cardona will weigh in.

Then: We’re developing on a 12 months after the January 6 rebel on the U.S. Capitol, that devastating day for democracy. Is the Capitol nonetheless as a lot of a goal now because it was then?

Capitol Police Chief Tom Manger says, sure, much more so.

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TOM MANGER (U.S. Capitol Police Chief): The risk degree is far increased than it was a 12 months in the past. It’s exponentially increased than it was 5 years in the past.

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MARGARET BRENNAN: Wyoming Republican Liz Cheney shares few political beliefs with California Democrat Adam Schiff, however they’re working collectively on the committee tasked with investigating the January 6 assault. We will hear from each of them.

Plus, Americans weigh in on our democracy in a brand new CBS News ballot. We may even discuss with the University of Chicago professor Robert Pape. His newest research on political violence has some stunning findings about these arrested for his or her position within the rebel.

It’s all simply forward on Face the Nation.

Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.

Two years and two days in the past, the WHO acquired the primary formal phrase from China a couple of mysterious new virus circulating in Wuhan. We have made plenty of progress preventing that virus since these terrifying early days of the worldwide pandemic. And we’re studying to reside with masks and restrictions designed to guard our well being.

But we’re beginning a 3rd 12 months of COVID, with new issues and confusion concerning the Omicron variant.

Mark Strassmann begins our COVID protection from Atlanta.

(Begin VT)

MARK STRASSMANN (voice-over): A brand new 12 months in our COVID chronicles welcomed by maskless Floridians with this super-spreaders jamboree, dangerous habits, even reckless.

Like many New Year’s resolutions, COVID information get damaged every day.

GOVERNOR PHIL MURPHY (D-New Jersey): The velocity at which Omicron is spreading is staggering.

MARK STRASSMANN: Take these jarring U.S. numbers, a brand new common of 356,000 new instances a day. That’s 4 extra instances each second. On Thursday, 16 states reported their highest whole ever.

WOMAN: The numbers we’re seeing, put that masks on, and hold it on by means of January at the very least, actually.

MARK STRASSMANN: More ominously, these numbers might be fractional, driving this epidemic, people who find themselves undiagnosed, both asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, however untested.

WOMAN: This place is so busy. It’s so packed. We have sufferers coming in on a regular basis.

MARK STRASSMANN: More fear spots, hospitals overwhelmed by sick sufferers and sick employees.

WOMAN: The majority of those persons are not vaccinated. I can not get them out of the fricking ready room. I can not get the sick individuals out of the ready room to get them away from these individuals with COVID.

MARK STRASSMANN: Many docs say keep away from going to the E.R., typically a COVID hotbed, particularly for youngsters.

MAN: If you are going to have individuals getting collectively, and you’ve got youngsters which can be unvaccinated, they would be the bullseye for Omicron.

MARK STRASSMANN: Across COVID America final week, virtually 400 youngsters a day have been hospitalized for the virus. That’s a 66 % improve from the week earlier than.

MAN: I’m in all probability seeing 4 to 5 instances the variety of youngsters who’re presently in my ICU.

MARK STRASSMANN: Schools one other fear. Millions of youngsters head again to class tomorrow. Parents spend hours in line for testing, typically confused about faculty steerage and protocols that change district to district, even faculty to highschool.

Many mother and father additionally fear their children are smooth targets.

WOMAN: They acquired to make use of the identical rest room, the identical lunchroom. So, you might be nonetheless exposing again all people to COVID.

MARK STRASSMANN: More than 2,000 Ok-12 faculties have already closed or will provide distant studying.

But most of America’s main faculty programs will resume this week by educating in individual, whereas they will.

WOMAN: If the academics now we have are coming down with the virus, who’s going to show the scholars?

(End VT)

MARK STRASSMANN: Here in Georgia, testing now reveals the positivity fee now pushes 40 %. It’s so excessive, Atlanta Public Schools simply determined to carry digital courses this week, when the children come again on Tuesday — Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mark Strassmann, thanks.

And we go now to former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb, who additionally sits on the board of Pfizer.

Good morning, and joyful new 12 months.

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB (Former FDA Commissioner): Good morning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: This just isn’t how we wished to begin the brand new 12 months, in fact.

Doctor, how far out are we from the Omicron peak? And do we have to deal with the an infection fee or the hospitalization fee?

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, we clearly have to deal with the hospitalization fee and the way many individuals have gotten severely in poor health.

There is a really clear decoupling between instances at this level and hospitalizations and ICU admissions. This does look like a milder pressure of coronavirus. And we even have plenty of immunity within the inhabitants.

I believe locations which were hard-hit early, just like the Mid-Atlantic, the Northeast, New England, Florida, elements of the Pacific Northwest, could also be two weeks away from peaking, however the remainder of the nation in all probability faces a tough bmonth forward of us.

I do not assume you are going to begin to see a nationwide peak till we get into February, as a result of there’s elements of the nation that basically have not been hard-hit by Omicron but. And the virus will unfold across the nation.

There’s a really clear, as I stated, decoupling between instances and hospitalizations. And it does seem now, based mostly on plenty of experimental proof that we have gotten simply within the final two weeks, that this can be a milder type of the coronavirus. It seems to be a extra of an higher airway illness than a decrease airway illness.

That’s good for many Americans. The one group that that could be an issue for may be very younger children, very younger youngsters, toddlers, who’ve bother with higher airway infections. And you are, the truth is, seeing extra croup-like infections and bronchiolitis in New York City amongst youngsters.

So, that might be a problem for younger children, and we’re seeing rising hospitalizations amongst that pediatric phase.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Now, clearly, an enormous level for fogeys of younger youngsters like me.

I’ve been taking a look at pediatric hospitalizations at this document excessive and anxious about sending my son again right into a preschool even with a masks on.

What do you inform mother and father? Are material masks simply not ok anymore?

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Cloth masks aren’t going to supply plenty of safety. That’s the underside line.

This is an airborne sickness. We now perceive that. And a material masks just isn’t going to guard you from a virus that spreads by means of airborne transmission. It may shield higher by means of droplet transmission, one thing just like the flu, however not one thing like this coronavirus.

We have to acknowledge this has not been a benign illness in younger youngsters. There’s a notion that younger youngsters have not been hit exhausting to this point from coronavirus. That’s simply not true. We’ve recorded greater than 600 pediatric deaths from COVID during the last two years.

To put that in perspective, now we have one demise from flu and the pediatric inhabitants final 12 months and to date two this 12 months. So, over a time period after we’ve performed an excellent job defending youngsters typically from respiratory infections. We’ve recorded greater than 600 deaths from COVID in opposition to three deaths from flu.

So, that is affecting youngsters, and notably younger youngsters. And this new pressure may have a predilection, once more, for the higher airway, which might be a much bigger problem in younger children due to the best way that it binds to the airway cells.

In phrases of going again to highschool, I believe the prerogative clearly is to attempt to get faculties reopened. We should not be doing preemptive faculty closures, for my part, however there will probably be conditions the place now we have reactive faculty closures, when there are giant outbreaks.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, and we additionally know that there are employees shortages as a result of persons are truly getting sick, proper? That’s the place the an infection fee issues. People cannot go to work, academics, or children have to remain dwelling from faculty.

Given the test-to-stay insurance policies now, can we be assured that antigen checks are catching the virus and that, in case your child takes one, they will safely go to highschool?

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Yes, look, the producers really feel very assured that their checks, the main market checks, are detecting this virus.

There was some experimental proof that the FDA put out a couple of week in the past exhibiting that, in laboratory research, there seemed to be decreased sensitivity by way of the take a look at’s capability to detect this virus.

But that does not correlate effectively with real-world settings, per se. So, we actually do not know whether or not or not that experimental proof is suggestive that these checks is probably not as delicate at choosing up the virus. But they do look like detecting Omicron at fairly excessive charges.

And I believe you may be fairly assured. Once once more, for those who’re utilizing the antigen take a look at to guard a high-risk setting, one of the best strategy is to do serial testing over a time period. While any particular person take a look at may miss the an infection, for those who’re doing serial testing, you are more likely to choose it up.

And we have to get checks into faculties. We nonetheless do not have checks extensively obtainable to the colleges, in order that they will use these checks for tests-to- keep insurance policies to forestall giant quarantines when are instances identified within the classroom.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ve seen even some universities transfer to distant studying for like a month or so.

Should individuals plan to be again within the workplace and again in college settings in a month? Is {that a} clear time-frame?

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB: I believe, actually, the February time-frame is acceptable by way of when we will cross by means of this Omicron wave throughout the United States.

Now, this can be a large nation. This will have an effect on completely different elements of the nation at completely different deadlines. But if the UK is any information, London’s already peaking. If South Africa is any information, that is a couple of two-month epidemic wave from begin to end.

And so, elements of the nation that have been affected earlier, like New York, in all probability are going to begin to peak within the subsequent two weeks, different elements inside the subsequent 4 weeks. So, I believe actually, by the tip of February, we will probably be by means of this, if companies want a information of when prevalence is

going to begin to decline.

In phrases of faculty, I believe the crucial must be to attempt to open faculties. What you are saying by closing faculties preemptively, and even schools, is which you can’t presumably management outbreaks in these settings. And I simply do not assume that that is the case.

I believe, with the instruments now we have, with prudence, with the information now we have about easy methods to management this an infection in these settings, you are able to do fairly —

a reasonably good job of making an attempt to regulate giant outbreaks, actually inside the classroom.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But simply to button up what you stated earlier, although, that your — your academics and your children have to be carrying high-quality masks, not material ones. You made that time.

If the FDA does go forward…

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB: I believe that is — sure.


DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Oh, no, I used to be — that is the underside line. And we have not performed a great job of getting high-quality masks to individuals.

The query is, do individuals have the instruments they want? And the reply is, in lots of instances, they nonetheless do not.


Well, some states like Connecticut are sending out N95 masks.


MARGARET BRENNAN: But that hasn’t occurred elsewhere.

The FDA is anticipated to green-light these booster pictures for 12-to-15-year- olds and the immunocompromised within the youthful age group. Should faculties mandate them? Do you suggest them?

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, look, I actually do not assume faculties ought to be mandating boosters.

I believe this ought to be left as much as the discretion of fogeys and their physicians. You know, it is going to depend upon the person circumstance. What is the danger that the kid’s going through? Are they in a setting the place they’re extra more likely to come into contact with the an infection?

Do they’ve some underlying well being circumstances that put them at elevated threat of unhealthy outcomes? We’ve seen that the sturdiness of the vaccines in younger youngsters, notably 12 to 16, has been extra strong than what we have seen in adults. In the research, at six months, there was 100% safety in that 12-to-16 cohort.

And that is seemingly as a result of children are getting a extra strong response from the vaccines extra typically. And, keep in mind, they’re — they’re at much less threat general from the an infection.


So, discuss to your physician.

All proper, Dr. Gottlieb, thanks very a lot.

Face the Nation will probably be again in a minute. Stay with us.


MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to the secretary of schooling, Miguel Cardona, who joins us from Meriden, Connecticut.

Good morning to you, and joyful new 12 months.

MIGUEL CARDONA (U.S. Education Secretary): Good morning, Margaret. Happy new 12 months to you as effectively.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You instructed me again in November that there is no such thing as a excuse for faculties to be something however in individual.

Do you stand by that assertion now?

MIGUEL CARDONA: I do know we have had an Omicron surge, however I nonetheless consider very firmly and really passionately, not solely as an educator, however as a dad or mum, that our college students belong within the classroom, and we are able to do it safely.

We have higher instruments than we had previously to get it performed. We know what works, and I consider, even with Omicron, our default ought to be in individual studying for all college students throughout the nation.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But then you might be seeing faculty districts already undergo closures, greater than 2,000 to date, based on Burbio.

Teachers unions, together with the most important one in your house state of Connecticut, have stated they need a delayed return as a result of they do not have entry to testing. They are involved about infections amongst younger youngsters.

So, it appears a few of the educators disagree with you.


You know, the objective is to have college students and employees be protected of their lecture rooms with the usage of the mitigation methods, with an entire host of methods that now we have now that we did not have after we have been having these conversations in March 2020 and to open the college 12 months the earlier 12 months.

We have entry to vaccinations for college students ages 5 and up. We have testing that is a special pool of checks than what we’re seeing now, the place we see individuals scrambling for checks. When the American Rescue Plan handed, there was $10 billion for surveillance testing for our districts.

And we’re seeing districts implementing methods now to do surveillance testing to make sure that lecture rooms are protected. We perceive there could also be bumps within the highway tomorrow. Superintendents right this moment are getting cellphone calls, studying that a few of their faculties might have 5 to 10 % of their employees not obtainable as a result of COVID-19.

So, we acknowledge that short-term emergency closures could also be essential to hold youngsters protected.

MARGARET BRENNAN: How widespread is that?

MIGUEL CARDONA: But it is the expectation that, by means of the usage of American Rescue Plan funds, we deal with a few of the shortages in staffing for the long-term advantage of our college students and our households.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I perceive the $10 billion that was allotted within the American Rescue Plan. That was months in the past.

But, right this moment, faculty districts are saying they do not have the checks.


MARGARET BRENNAN: Whose fault is that, if the cash was allotted?


Well, we all know that this Omicron got here shortly, and, in lots of districts, there aren’t programs arrange but. We’re working carefully with these programs. We’ve partnered with the Rockefeller Foundation to assist develop contracts. And we’re seeing in lots of giant districts throughout the nation that they do have them.

That, coupled with what we all know goes to assist, having a shorter quarantine interval, we do consider our faculties can stay open. We have to remain vigilant. We have to remain centered and people mitigation methods that work. And now we have to proceed to work collectively to provide our college students an opportunity to be taught within the classroom.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you say now the testing is being arrange. So are you saying that the federal authorities can be sure that each faculty district within the nation has an ample provide of testing this week?

MIGUEL CARDONA: What I’m saying is that we’re working with districts to arrange programs that perhaps weren’t arrange when there was a dip in unfold. But we’re working carefully now to be sure that they’re being arrange.

We’re working actually exhausting to be sure that they’ve entry to checks and that they’ve assets to supply testing.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we all know distant studying has harm youngsters. Emotionally, we’re seeing the impacts of that as effectively.

But you may have instructor shortages additionally as a result of successful to morale. People do not need to go into that classroom, a lot of them. Have you gotten on the cellphone and requested the academics unions to nonetheless present up in individual?

MIGUEL CARDONA: Since the start of the pandemic, even earlier than I used to be secretary of schooling, once I was serving as commissioner right here in Connecticut, we labored collectively. And we needed to talk the significance of in-person studying, but in addition in ensuring that our educators are protected and have the assist that they want.

That’s why it was critically vital with the American Rescue Plan to

have funds obtainable to supply that security that they wanted. Vaccinations for educators was early. I imply, the president introduced that — I consider it was in March. And we had over 90 % of our educators vaccinated by the summer time.

That should not cease. Our educators — it does not take a pandemic for us to understand what academics can do. We have to proceed to assist them, not solely in the course of the pandemic, however past.


But that is why I’m asking what you have requested the academics union to do, as a result of, out in Chicago, in Massachusetts, in Connecticut, you may have academics saying they do not really feel protected.

MIGUEL CARDONA: Well, the message hasn’t modified.

We want to verify we’re following mitigation methods, that we’re supporting our educators by offering a protected studying surroundings, we’re offering vaccination for our college students as younger as 5, in order that the entire faculty neighborhood is protected, and we’re offering surveillance testing to be sure that, if somebody is sick, that they keep dwelling.

So these are the issues that we are able to do to supply a protected faculty surroundings. And we have to double down now that Omicron is increased to be sure that we’re doing that.


MIGUEL CARDONA: But it really works.

You know, we went from 47 % of our faculties open in individual in January of final 12 months to 99 % in December. We know what works. We have to stay to it. We need to assist our educators, our households. And, most significantly, now we have to assist our college students.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The White House stated that the unvaccinated confronted a extreme winter of demise.

Children beneath 5 can’t be vaccinated. What is your message to the mother and father of a kindergartner or a preschooler after they ship their youngster into the classroom? What are they supposed to consider that?


And I take into consideration these mother and father commonly. I keep in mind having to reopen faculties earlier than we had vaccines for any youngsters and earlier than we had the science that now we have now. So, I keep in mind how troublesome that was, as a dad or mum myself.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, however I’m speaking about now and White House language about now.


So, my message to these mother and father is identical message. And for this reason I used to be mentioning that — is identical message I’ve needed to mother and father for the final


Mitigation methods work. When now we have masks and after we’re making certain that, if college students are sick, they keep dwelling, after we be sure that the individuals spherical them are vaccinated, we’re defending these youngsters as effectively.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you, and good luck to you, Mr. Secretary.

We will probably be proper again much more Face the Nation.

Stay with us.


MARGARET BRENNAN: A 12 months after the violent assault on the Capitol by a whole bunch of Americans decided to cease the certification of the 2020 election,a brand new CBS News ballot finds that day nonetheless has a lingering impact on the nationwide psyche.

Sixty-eight % assume it is a signal of extra violence to come back, and two- thirds assume democracy itself is threatened.

Joining us now’s CBS News director of elections and surveys Anthony Salvanto.

Anthony, good morning to you.

This is an unimaginable quantity; 68 % of Americans consider the nation

is susceptible to violence?

ANTHONY SALVANTO: Good morning, Margaret. It is.

Let’s attempt to perceive what’s driving that somewhat bit. First, look again on that day on the Capitol. And I ought to begin by saying there’s overwhelming disapproval of what occurred.

But there are 17 % now that do approve of what occurred. Over the course of the 12 months, now we have seen some motion amongst Republicans inside those that disapprove, somewhat little bit of softening of that, from the strongly disapprove, somewhat extra into this considerably disapprove class.

And then let’s look ahead, as a result of what’s so vital is not simply what individuals anticipate. It’s that democracy is determined by not simply of us following the norms, however considering that different individuals will.

Well, in future presidential elections, do you count on there to be extra violence by the dropping aspect? And you get 62 % who say, sure, that might occur.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Does that quantity to an endorsement of political violence? And who’re these Americans?


And what we need to emphasize right here is that it is not that folks say that they themselves would undertake it, however whether or not they is likely to be OK with it if different individuals did.

Let’s begin by trying again at what individuals assume occurred that day. Well, there’s plenty of of us on the Republican aspect, 4 in 10, who assume that, somewhat than Trump supporters who entered the Capitol, that it was left- leaning teams pretending to be Trump supporters.

So, then you definately have a look at individuals who consider in conspiracy theories, in QAnon. They are more likely than Americans general to approve. So all of it begins maybe with what they consider to be the case.

Now, we tackled this head on. We requested, OK, what would you like former President Trump to be doing now? And there’s 12 % of the nation that say he ought to be preventing proper now to get again into the workplace earlier than the following election.

Now, you’re taking a subset of them who say that, if mandatory, power might be used to do this. Now, that is 4 % of the nation. We do not typically speak about numbers that small, however what now we have seen right here is that it does not take giant numbers of individuals to really feel that method, after which that in flip results in that lessening confidence or that anticipation that extra violence would possibly come up, as a result of they know that these of us are on the market — Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: An vital level.

But we’re seeing radicalized politics exterior the United States, too. From what you see right here at dwelling, is all of this concerning the former president, or is one thing else driving it?

ANTHONY SALVANTO: Yes, we requested a couple of vary of points, not simply elections, and requested, effectively, are these vital sufficient that violence might be justified, once more, if undertaken maybe by others?

And you get a spread, from civil rights, to gun insurance policies, to labor points, amongst others, the place you get 20-odd %, even 30-odd % who say that it is likely to be justified. And then you definately have a look at, effectively, is it justifiable for candidates or elected officers to do issues like name for violence?

And that is 14 %, once more, not an amazing quantity, however it’s some.

Now, one of many belongings you need to have a look at, Margaret, is why they assume that is likely to be justified. It’s not a lot that folks assume that violence can itself be acceptable, however they concern that their opponents would possibly try this, or worse. So, it is a signal of that underlying distrust.

However, it is a new 12 months. I need to present you one thing in addition to these very sobering issues. You have a look at whether or not individuals assume, within the abstraction, that the U.S. ought to divide into purple and blue states. And there are usually not many individuals who really feel that method.

The overwhelming variety of individuals would really like the nation to remain collectively.

MARGARET BRENNAN: A notice of optimism.

Anthony, thanks.

We will probably be proper again.


MARGARET BRENNAN: We will probably be again in a second with much more Face the Nation.

Stay with us.



We now flip to the congressional committee investigating January sixth. Republican Liz Cheney of Wyoming is the vice chair of the committee, and she or he joins us now from Capitol Hill.

Good morning to you.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Good morning, Margaret. Thank you for having me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We know Democrats are planning a vigil. We know the previous president is planning a information convention. Are you involved concerning the nation being susceptible to political violence this week and within the years forward?

LIZ CHENEY: Look, I believe that if — if what he has been saying since he left workplace is any indication, former President Trump is probably going, once more this week, to make the identical false claims concerning the election that he is aware of to be false, and the identical false claims concerning the election that he is aware of induced violence on January sixth.

I believe that it’s, certainly, very regarding given what we all know occurred within the lead-up to the sixth, and what the committee is discovering out concerning the occasions of that day. But I believe that it’s not stunning, however, once more, he is aware of these claims induced violence. And we have seen now individuals who have been within the Capitol, individuals who have been arrested due to their actions on that day, they themselves have instructed us in court docket filings, they’ve instructed us on social media, we have seen it on movies, that they have been right here as a result of Donald Trump instructed them to be right here. And so he is very — he is doing this press convention on the sixth. Again, if he makes those self same claims, he is doing it with full understanding and information of what these claims have induced previously.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve raised previously the potential of felony culpability for the president. Is that the consensus view of the committee?

LIZ CHENEY: Look, the committee is — is, clearly, going to observe the details wherever they lead. We’ve made great progress. We have had now – – for those who simply take into consideration, for instance, what we all know now about what the previous president was doing on the sixth whereas the assault was underway. The committee has firsthand testimony that President Trump was sitting within the eating room subsequent to the Oval Office watching on tv because the Capitol was assaulted, because the violence occurred.

We know that that’s clearly a supreme dereliction of responsibility. One of the issues that the committee is taking a look at, from the angle of our legislative function, is whether or not we’d like enhanced penalties for that type of dereliction of responsibility. But we have actually by no means seen something like that as a nation earlier than.

MARGARET BRENNAN: One of the issues that we have seen in CBS polling is that there’s only a exhausting proportion of the inhabitants that believes what the

former president is claiming. Eight million individuals consider in violence to revive him to workplace. Seven out of 10 Republicans nonetheless consider President Biden’s illegitimate, 66 % consider there was widespread voter fraud.

So these numbers are fairly exhausting right here. Why hasn’t this conviction abated inside your get together?

LIZ CHENEY: Look, I believe that — that we’re in a scenario the place individuals have gotten to know the hazard of President Trump and the hazard that he posed on that day.

You know, for those who assume, Margaret, he may have merely walked a couple of ft to the White House Briefing Room, he may have gone instantly on reside tv and requested his supporters to cease what was taking place, ask them to go dwelling. He failed to do this. He — he, as an alternative, we all know, had the motivation, on the identical time the violent assault was taking place, he is watching tv, he is additionally calling at the very least one senator urging delay of the electoral vote.

So, this can be a man who has demonstrated that he is at struggle with the rule of regulation. He’s demonstrated that he is keen to blow by means of each guardrail of democracy. And he can by no means be anyplace close to the oval workplace once more. He’s demonstrated a whole lack of health for workplace.

I believe one of many actually vital issues that our committee has to do is lay these details out for the American individuals in order that they actually have a way of the reality of what occurred that day, and in order that they inform us by way of our legislative exercise going ahead.


That assumes details can truly persuade. What occurs with this committee if Republicans take the bulk in 2022? Have you requested Kevin McCarthy to maintain it?

LIZ CHENEY: You know, Leader McCarthy has stated quite a lot of issues. He has each acted to hinder the actions of the committee, however he is additionally, on a few events, stated that he is keen to come back discuss to the committee.

I believe that the American individuals, once more, particularly the Republican Party, you understand, we, as Republicans, have a option to make. I’m a conservative Republican. I consider strongly within the insurance policies of low taxes and restricted authorities and a robust nationwide protection.


LIZ CHENEY: I believe the nation wants a robust Republican Party going ahead. But our get together has to decide on. We can both be loyal to Donald Trump or we may be loyal to the Constitution, however we can’t be each. And proper now there are far too many Republicans who’re making an attempt to allow the previous president, embrace the previous president, look the opposite method and hope that the previous president goes away, making an attempt to hinder the actions of this committee. But we cannot be deterred.

MARGARET BRENNAN: In a variety of state capitals across the nation, in 19 completely different states, election legal guidelines are being modified. And in some there may be concern that Republican-controlled legislatures may be capable to change certification of an election if they do not like the end result of it. This is undermining confidence amongst some within the public concerning the integrity of our

elections. Would you ask your fellow Republicans in states across the nation to cease making an attempt to do this?

LIZ CHENEY: Absolutely. I believe that, once more, you understand, as a nation we have got to be based on the rule of regulation. We’ve acquired to be based on constancy of the Constitution. And whenever you have a look at what former President Trump continues to do to today by way of making an attempt to undermine our perception in our Democratic course of, by way of making an attempt to undermine the rule of regulation, by way of looking for native officers who will assist him try this, one of many actually vital classes we discovered on January sixth was how vital it was that we had a couple of people who stood up. We had people on the Department of Justice earlier than January sixth who stood as much as the president, who stated completely not, we won’t declare that this election was stolen, who instructed him the reality, and we had native officers within the get together, the Republican Party, who did the identical.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We have congressional races in 2022. You, your self, are working out in Wyoming. We know the previous president endorsed your major opponent. He’s promised to assist marketing campaign in opposition to you. You have one in every of his largest donors, Peter Thiel, a billionaire, throwing cash behind your major opponent. This is a direct problem right here.

Given how purple your state is, how do you count on to win that major?

LIZ CHENEY: Look, I’m completely honored and privileged to have the ability to symbolize the individuals of Wyoming in Congress. I completely anticipate that we’ll have a really energetic and hard-fought marketing campaign this 12 months. But on the finish of the day, I’m additionally extremely privileged to have the ability to get up and defend the Constitution of the United States. And I’m assured that the individuals of Wyoming won’t select loyalty to 1 man, one man as harmful as Donald Trump is.

You know, think about a person who, whereas the violent assault was underway, whereas he was watching tv, watching it unfold, not telling his supporters to cease and go dwelling, as an alternative was sending out a tweet saying that Mike Pence was a coward. This is a person who is just too harmful ever to play a task once more in our democracy. And I sit up for the chance to proceed to assist the American individuals see the details about what occurred, and to proceed to make the case at dwelling concerning the type of illustration that we’d like in Washington for the individuals of Wyoming.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Would you be keen to run in opposition to him in 2024?

LIZ CHENEY: I’m very centered proper now on my re-election and — and on the work of the choose committee. And I can inform you that — that the one most vital factor, although, is to make sure that — that Donald Trump just isn’t the Republican nominee, and that he actually just isn’t anyplace near the Oval Office ever once more.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Congresswoman Cheney, thanks on your time right this moment.

We’ll be proper again with the chair of the House Intelligence Committee.


MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to a Democrat on that January sixth committee, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff. He wears each hats.

Good morning to you, Congressman.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Good morning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: When will you start public hearings, and what’s the function of them?

ADAM SCHIFF: We ought to start them, I hope, in a matter of weeks, if not a few months from now. And what we count on to do is to put out what we have been studying for the American individuals. There have been a number of traces of effort to overturn the election. There was, in fact, the lies being promulgated by the previous president, but in addition efforts with native elections officers and state legislators, efforts on the Justice Department, and, in fact, the violent assault on January sixth. And we hope to have the ability to inform the story to the nation in order that they perceive it is not nearly that in the future, January sixth, however all that led as much as it, what occurred on that day, and the persevering with hazard going ahead.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So precisely what diploma of coordination have you ever seen to date? Particularly between these inside the Trump White House, political operatives, and the 725 folks that the — which were charged by the Justice Department?

ADAM SCHIFF: Well, that is actually a focus of our investigation, and that’s, what was the position of the previous president? What was the position of his aides and advisors? Certainly they have been indicatively concerned in a lot of these traces of effort.

In phrases of the particular violent assault on the Capitol, how a lot expectation of violence was there, how a lot was that a part of the plan, both spontaneously or by way of any predisposition in direction of violence that day, that’s nonetheless a matter beneath deep investigation. But we intend to make use of each effort to get out the complete details and expose them to the American individuals and — and take legislative motion to guard the nation going ahead. But that situation, that’s, what was the White House’s position in what occurred on the sixth that led to the primary violent assault in a century and a half, if not longer, is on the core of our investigation.


Because you may have oversight in your intelligence committee position, I need to know to what diploma you assume this was an intelligence failure? Was there only a failure of creativeness by way of an excessive amount of deal with militias and arranged teams versus kind of a defused risk of political violence? Why was this missed?

ADAM SCHIFF: Well, you understand, I believe that partly it’s an intelligence failure. That is, the failure to see all of the proof that was on the market to be seen for the propensity of violence that day. Loads of it on social media.

Now, there are solutions for why the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security didn’t see it as cheerleader as they need to have, and we’re trying into that.

But we should not be distracted from the truth that, sure, whereas there have been issues that might and may have been performed to guard the Capitol that day, the first lever, instrument, the reason for that violence was the promulgation of an enormous lie by the previous president.

As his supporters stated, who got here and attacked the Capitol that day, they felt like they have been following the president’s directions. So, it is — it is vital to lose — that we do not lose sight of the actual motivating trigger right here and — and never simply deal with the safety of the constructing. It’s

additionally important we perceive that this was an assault impressed by the commander- in-chief.


This goes to go to the Supreme Court by way of figuring out whether or not a few of the information from the Trump administration will probably be launched to your committee. If there’s a prolonged delay, if the Supreme Court hears this out, how negatively will that affect your work? And how badly do you want these paperwork?

ADAM SCHIFF: Well, now we have gotten tens of 1000’s of paperwork and have a whole bunch of witnesses, so we’re making an attempt to get info in numerous means and varieties in order that we’re not solely depending on that litigation. But, in fact, it is the hope of Donald Trump and his acolytes that they will delay till they will deny justice.

I do not assume they will achieve success. I believe the court docket understands, and the courts have been shifting with nice alacrity, that basically delay is the technique. It’s not concerning the deserves of litigation a lot as it’s depriving Congress and the American individuals of knowledge they consider I assume can be incriminating to them.

But when it does go earlier than the Supreme Court, we effectively get a way of whether or not that court docket is a conservative court docket or whether or not it has change into only a bipartisan court docket. If it is a conservative court docket, it won’t disturb the choices under, which I believe have clearly held that Congress has a proper to this info beneath these circumstances.


ADAM SCHIFF: You have the manager department represented by Joe Biden, and the legislative department in a court docket. It can be extraordinary for the judicial department to vary with each different branches of presidency.

MARGARET BRENNAN: In your Intel Committee position, I need to ask you about Russia. What particularly would cease Vladimir Putin from his aggression? Do

you might want to minimize that nation off from the worldwide monetary system, to

sanction him personally?

ADAM SCHIFF: Well, I believe that it will require huge sanctions on Russia to discourage what seems to be a really seemingly Russian invasion of Ukraine once more. And — and I believe our allies have to be solidly on board with it. Russia wants to know, we’re united on this.

I additionally assume {that a} highly effective deterrent is the understanding that in the event that they do invade, it’s going to carry NATO nearer to Russia, not push it farther away. That we’ll transfer extra NATO belongings nearer to Russia, that it’ll have the alternative affect of what Putin is making an attempt to attain. So the mixture, I believe, of very sturdy sanctions, and I actually don’t have any drawback of going after Putin personally, however I believe extra that the sector- sized sanctions will probably be an important.

But — however past that, the information that, the truth is, we’ll transfer extra NATO belongings nearer to Russia, not additional away, in the event that they as soon as once more carry struggle to Ukraine.


Very shortly, do you concern these diplomatic talks are simply constructing a pretext for Russia to say they don’t have any selection however to invade?

ADAM SCHIFF: I concern that — that Putin may be very more likely to invade. I nonetheless, frankly, do not perceive the complete motivation for why, why now he is doing this, however he actually seems intent on it, except we are able to persuade him in any other case. And I believe nothing apart from a degree of sanctions that Russia

has ever seen will deter him, and that is precisely what we have to do with our allies.


All proper, Congressman Schiff, thanks on your time. We’ll be proper again.


MARGARET BRENNAN: We need to take a more in-depth look now on the 725 individuals who have been charged for his or her roles within the assault on the Capitol. Who are these people, and what can we be taught from their backgrounds that may assist us perceive the political violence that we noticed that day on January sixth?

Joining us now’s Professor Robert Pape of the University of Chicago.

Professor, I do know you have studied insurgencies in struggle zones. You’re working with the Pentagon now. I imply you are taking a look at what is occurring within the United States. And one of many issues that was chilling to me was that you just discovered the vast majority of those that attacked weren’t affiliated with any organized militia, they have been on a regular basis individuals.

ROBERT PAPE, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: Exactly proper, Margaret. What we’re seeing is a motion that may be a mainstream motion, not merely confined to fringe parts. And that is vital as a result of we’re so used to considering of right-wing extremism or actually extremism usually, as a part of the perimeter. They’re only a tiny fraction of America, lower than 1 %. And they arrive from individuals which can be economically destitute, many typically unemployed. Well, that is not what our research of the January sixth — those that broke into the Capitol on January sixth reveals, or the — our research of the insurrectionist sentiments within the nation.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And what you discovered is that a few of these individuals have been — have been enterprise house owners. They have been employed. These have been individuals who had

one thing to lose. They have been placing issues in danger after they went to

Washington and carried out this violence?

ROBERT PAPE: Absolutely. Very strikingly discovering is their financial profile. Over half of the 700 who broke into the Capitol, who’ve been arrested to date for breaking into the Capitol, are enterprise house owners, CEOs, from white- collar occupations, docs, legal professionals, architects, and accountants. Only 7 % have been unemployed on the time of their January sixth rebel, practically the nationwide common. This may be very completely different than we’re used to seeing from right-wing extremists the place usually 25 %, 30 % of right-ring violent offenders are unemployed, and nearly none are CEOs or enterprise house owners.

Further, if we have a look at their relationship to the militia teams, so solely 13 % of those that broke into the Capitol on January sixth have been members of militia teams, just like the Oath Keepers, or extremist teams just like the Proud Boys. That means practically 90 % weren’t.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, if these individuals believed in what they have been doing, who’re they getting their info from? How may they really put every little thing on the road and perform this violence? Like, who’s telling them what to do?

ROBERT PAPE: Well, we are able to see their media consumption from surveys that we have performed after our research of who broke into the Capitol. We discover that solely 21 million individuals consider two radical beliefs in America right this moment. One, that Joe Biden is an illegitimate president, and, two, that the usage of power to revive Donald Trump to the presidency is justified. And their media sources of these 21 million, they arrive from — 42 % of the 21 million, their primary media supply is Fox News, Newsmax, and One America. That is mainstream, conservative information. Their second most outstanding information supply is definitely liberal and centrist media, like CNN, NPR, CBS. And you would possibly say, effectively, how may that be? It’s as a result of typically when individuals watch concepts they disagree with, that makes them offended. Only 10 % of the 21 million are getting their information primarily from right-wing social media, like Gab or Telegraph.

MARGARET BRENNAN: President Biden has stated that — that he believes racism was a key a part of the assault on the Capitol on January sixth. Have you seen something that bears that out to be true?

ROBERT PAPE: Race is a component, and race is a driver. So after we have a look at the counties that the 700 who broke into the Capitol got here from, the place they reside, what we see is over half reside in counties that Joe Biden gained. They do not primarily come from the reddest elements of America. They’re coming from San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York City, Philadelphia, Houston and Dallas. Further, after we have a look at the important thing attribute of why some counties and never others, what we see is the counties that despatched the insurrectionists are the counties dropping essentially the most white inhabitants.

Well, that dovetails with this right-wing conspiracy principle that was once a part of the perimeter referred to as the good alternative. The concept that whites are being changed. This concept can be that the Democratic Party is doing this intentionally. Well, that concept now’s voiced by mainstream political leaders, by mainstream media figures, embraced full throttle.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So what are the triggers that you’re watching? Because I do know you may have stated previously, this is not nearly violence in Washington. You may see sparks of violence in Atlanta, Georgia, in different main cities. What is the set off?

ROBERT PAPE: That’s precisely proper. So what we’re seeing in our surveys, our nationwide surveys, of the 21 million within the insurrectionist motion is a mass of flamable materials. Think of it as like dry wooden that might be set off like — from a lightning strike or a spark, as in wildfires. Well,

we’re shifting right into a extremely risky 2022 election season, the place there might be many sparks on the native ranges. And plenty of our election legal guidelines, say Georgia or Texas, the counting of the vote has been extra politicized than ever earlier than.

What that does is it creates a really harmful season. Which means, as we undergo the 2022 elections season, it is essential to have dialogue with our political leaders, our neighborhood leaders, particularly the White House, over this new empirical actuality.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Professor, vital work. Thank you for sharing it with us.

ROBERT PAPE: Thank you, Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be again in a second.


MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us right this moment. Thank you for watching.

Be positive to hitch us subsequent Sunday after we discuss completely to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

For FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.

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